Perfectly, we have found Ken’s masterful research project concerning the bloodlines off Llewelyn Fawr and Joanna

Simply ‘Ellen’s’ label stays a secret, truth be told there seems to be zero-one to named Ellen or Helen, except possibly an ‘Eleanor’ toward Joanna’s front (Eleanor from Aquitaine, mommy from Joanna’s father Queen John)

Hello, folk. It is really fascinating; the things i wouldn’t has given to have access to this article twenty-5 years ago whenever i are researching and creating Here Getting Dragons!

The key purpose of which exercise is to try, from the a glance at genealogist’s feedback about them and by asking certain identified brand spanking new supplies, to choose who was simply the mother out-of Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Is she Joanna, wife regarding Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Produced circa.1188, died. March 1237) otherwise is she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch out of Rhos, domme away from Llywelyn, produced circa. 1168, passed away??

I will follow this having a vacation investigation toward you can lives from a ded Susanna, given out to Queen Henry 111 while the a hostage when you look at the 1228 along with her infant custody are offered to Sir Nicholas Verdun with his wife Clementia.

The new feedback of Genealogists that i has actually read are merely that, feedback, in addition they disagree significantly. No special facts is obtainable in any event, but i have to say that most keep to have Gwladus is the fresh child from Joanna. This is also true of your genealogists of your own descendants off new De Braose relatives, nevertheless they ily to get tied to both Welsh and you can English royal property!

The list following of Llywelyn’s multiple legitimate and illegitimate children looks to be fundamentally accepted because of the all of the genealogists which i has actually examined with the exception of differences more than whether or not # 9 most stayed. The newest times from delivery given just below are disputed because of the certain:

1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, born circa.1199, passed away 1244
2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, created circa.1206, died 1251
3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1208? passed away circa 1263,
5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince regarding Wales, produced circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts regarding it time, discover afterwards), passed away 25 March 1246,
6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1209 passed away 1281.
7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, died 1257
8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – created circa 1210, you can easily dual to Angharad?
9. ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, born circa 1214? Died 1259?

There was far dispute along side title of your moms and dads off these types of youngsters. There is standard contract the only certain students off Llywelyn’s e Prince off Wales and you can Ellen (Helen) just who married (1) John the brand new Scot, young buck of one’s earl out-of Chester and you will (2) Robert de Quincy. Even in the event viewpoint is divided over the parents of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you can Susanna american versus canadian women, a lot of genealogists We have studied lean towards the the mommy getting Joanna.

This is partly through its heading dates of delivery as better since their marriage ceremonies to various marcher lords exactly who, one to supposes, could have desired to make their homes to that particular of the neighbor, the fresh Prince from Northern Wales with his partner, brand new queen off England’s daughter. It is thought that these lords of one’s February wouldn’t have obtained much attention otherwise political desire in marrying off its sons to your illegitimate daughters out of a good Welsh prince having an effective Welsh woman.

About what brands of those people, if by Joanna, Tangwystl or someone else, they certainly were most of the entitled shortly after people in Llywelyn’s household members:

Ken, we’re totally on your debt

Llywelyn’s mom try titled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ out-of Gwynedd. Their paternal grandmother are entitled ‘Gwladus’. The mother and father from his grandmother Susanna, was indeed ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you can ‘Angharad’ regarding Flint and you can both the brands got so you’re able to Llywelyn’s college students. It Susanna along with had a sister named ‘Gwenllian’, a similar title once the Llywelyn’s great-grandmother.